I have a GE water softener which cycles through the regeneration process but does not soften the water. Through trouble shooting I have found that the unit does not have enough suction during the brining sequence to lift brine from the salt reservoir. While in this step of the process I can manually index the gear drive slightly to obtain a good vacuum. When I do this the unit does soften, but the fix is only temporary. After completing the cycle the unit returns to the previous condition. My question is: How can I reset or reposition the drive mechanism to provide the proper orientation of the regeneration mechanism? Two technicans have been unable to fix this problem.
Thanks.
Bob
I can't answer the specific question but... something is out of index or worn. Possibly the rotaing disc and it's gasket; or gearing. From what a fair number of people with that brand and its sister brands softeners tell me, the disc and gasket seems to be the cause of brine draw problems if it is control valve related and not in the brine tank.
Did the techs replace any parts?
Gary
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Doug Aleshire, Super Moderator 2
Per the repair invoice one tech replaced the figure 8 gasket. The next tech did not have a clue.
I know that the problem is related to the cycle mechanism or some internal disorder. The problem does not have anything to do with the brine/salt tank or connections.
Bob
Does GE or anyone else publish a repair manual for water softeners?
Thanks.
Bob
That's the gasket I refered to but they didn't change the disc. They both require replacement because the disc wears on the gasket. I suspect you need both now.
If 'we' put out a manual as to repair softeners, we'd need a thousand different manuals. Unless of course, we only had manuals for the big box store softeners.... but hey don't sell half the softeners that water treatment dealers do. The best way to learn repair something is to tear a good one apart and understand how it is supposed to work. Then move to the one that isn't working and find the part/area that isn't working properly and fix/replace it.
www.kenmorewater.com will explain how a softener works but won't get into repair.
Gary
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Doug Aleshire, Super Moderator 2
I think that I have the same problem. When testing for suction during the brine phase, I have water that comes out of the venturi valve instead of suction. The unit is just over a year old and the gasket looks good. According to the kenmore trouble shooting site if you see the outlay on the gasket then it is no good. This is the only thing I see on the gasket. The gasket is very clean, flexible, and it can hold suction when taken off of the unit. It seems that it is another problem maybe the gasket inside the unit or something. Is there any other test I can do or is this such a common problem that I should just order some new parts? Which parts do you think need replacing for the no suction during brine phase?
Thanks for the help.
Rick
The same disc and gasket (kit) for $50+/-. You can find it on their site and there a number of little pieces in the kit in addition to the disc and gasket. The disc etc. goes in the control valve.
Gary
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Doug Aleshire, Super Moderator 2
I noticed the same thing as !Bob. When the softener is in the Brine phase I get little to no suction. If I press the button to advance it to the next phase and then unplug the transformer, the suction is fine and it will pull up the brine. The unit is less than two years old, and the gasket is perfectly clean and nothing is blocked.
!Bob, did you ever figure yours out?
I also have a GE water softener that is about 2 years old. I have tried everything in the manual...ie. salt bridge, clean out the venturi, etc. and nothing gets it to work. Do any of you have any suggestions? Do I buy a new water softener? Should I only expect to get 2 years (really 1.5) years of use from one? Any suggestions?
My softener is working at the moment. Here are a few things I've discovered over the last few months of trying to get mine to work.
1) Don't overtighten the Venturi cap. It compresses the disk into the gasket.
2) Obviously make sure the gasket is in correctly after cleaning it. (The kenmore website explains clearly how the venturi assembly goes together)
3) The float valve in the Brine tank can get stuck if the softener hasn't been working for a while. Try pushing the top stick down while its in the brine phase.
4) Make sure to lubricate the o-ring in the venturi assembly.
5) The last thing I did (and now its working great) - I took the control valve apart and I cleaned and lubricated all the rubber seals with food grade silicon grease.
Good luck.
A caution on lubricating, do not use any type of petroleum product. They cause orings and seals etc. damage. Only food grade silicone lubricants should be used.
Gary
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Doug Aleshire, Super Moderator 2
This is evidently a common design fault of GE water softeners and probably results in tens of millions of dollars per year in parts being ordered unnecessarily. A class action lawsuit should be filed to make GE fix them.
In any case, the problem as you note is that over time just a few degrees of extra turning will make it work again. You obtain this extra movement by taking a pair of pliers and slightly flattening the metal arm on the switch that follows the indexing cam. This will extend the time the motor turns such that you get the few extra degrees needed to make the suction good. All other positions have much bigger slop. The suction hole alignment has to be much better.
This fix worked on by mine and a friends at work softener.
Good luck.
Can you help point me in the right direction please...what piece of the unit needs to have a few degrees of extra turning applied to make it work again? Where is the metal arm you are refering to? Thanks for your help...
Apparently this problem is due to a design and not a manufacturing flaw.
My unit is about 2 years old and is experiencing the same problem. As per the animated diagnostics site I have replaced the gasket and nozzle in the venturi assembly with no success.
I have diagnosed that 1 degree of additional rotation of the valve shaft will cause the unit to generate vacum. I am assuming this is due to a poorly designed rotating valve and seal which fail prematurely, and repeatedly.
I will order the new parts and try.
It is clear these GE units are consistantly failing. I have called GE and they have been less than helpful, in fact they refuse to discuss any aspect of water softeners at all!
If there is any movement on a class action please let me know, I would be delighted to join.
I googled for GE water softener common problems and here I am. Amazing what you can find ... anyway enough of that
I had this same problem with a ~1990 Sears Kenmore softener (same internals as the GE). Bending the actuator arm does help, but it is a temporary fix. The real problem is that the valve gets very hard to turn. If you remove the motor you will find it almost impossible to turn the valve by hand. And if you listen to the motor and watch carefully while it is driving the valve, you may hear the motor go click-click-click as it skips gears, and the valve will move forward in jerks. This should not be the case.
Taking apart the control valve, cleaning and lubricate does help. When you put it back together, be sure not to overtighten the screws that hold the valve together. Just snug them up (but check for leaks of course). Once you've done this, and put the cam/gear gizmo back on the shaft, you should be able to rotate the valve fairly easily by hand. Reinstall the motor, and watch it drive. You should see no more jerks.
I really don't know what causes the valve to tighten up. The parts don't look at all worn. I suspect it is a poor design.
I managed to nurse along my old Kenmore for about 10 years by doing this periodically. Finally the motor burned out so I replaced the whole unit, hoping for a more reliable model. I bought the GE. And it has the same internals, and developed the same problem Argh! Serves me right for not looking under the hood before I bought.
Well, I'm off to buy some silicon grease. Wish me luck. I am also going to dig deeper with GE and/or Sears about this problem. They have been making these things the same way for over 10 years. They must know about the problem, and they may have some tips for fixing it right.
If I find out anything more I'll post here.
- John
Hi again,
Ok, I've sucessfully revived the GE water softener using the following technique. This is the same technique I used on the Kenmore.
- Disassemble the control valve
- Inspect the inside of the top valve housing, especially where the shaft and spring ride. Remove any hard water deposits.
- Inspect both surfaces that the spring rides against. If either is worn, or has burrs, gently smooth with waterproof sandpaper.
- Lube up everything with silicon grease.
--- all the o-rings.
--- the surfaces that the spring rides against
--- the shaft
--- the face of the disc
- When reassembling the control valve, don't overtighten.
- Make sure you can turn the cam/gear with your hand. It should be firm but not difficult.
- Now the motor should be able to drive the valve to the correct position.
Cheers,
- John
One company, Ecodyn/Ecowater makes GE (they own Autotrol!), North Star, Kenmore and a few other big box store brands and most use the same parts. If I'm right they all have the same 3 year warranty and sell for about the same price. An fail about the same time with the same parts needed to be replaced. That old saying; you get what you pay for may come to mind...
Gary
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Doug Aleshire, Super Moderator 2
I am having the same challenge GE Water Softener Problem as Bob
I only had one service call to determine the people knew less about repair than selling new units. I have replaced Nozzle/Venturi ASM (WS15X10009) No luck. So that was $84.30 for my parts and $35 for the prior service call. I think it could be the METER TURBINE not functioning properly since I can nudge the gears and it will work once. Any suggestions?
Regards,
Dave
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I have a GE water softener which cycles through the regeneration process but does not soften the water. Through trouble shooting I have found that the unit does not have enough suction during the brining sequence to lift brine from the salt reservoir. While in this step of the process I can manually index the gear drive slightly to obtain a good vacuum. When I do this the unit does soften, but the fix is only temporary. After completing the cycle the unit returns to the previous condition. My question is: How can I reset or reposition the drive mechanism to provide the proper orientation of the regeneration mechanism? Two technicans have been unable to fix this problem.
Thanks.
Bob
What gears? If the one the motor drives there is some problem with a loss of indexing but I dont work on that make and I dont know anymore than that. If you mean the turbine won't spin, then see if it can be cleaned but isn't there a blinking light or something that tells you it is counting down the gallons?
Gary
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Doug Aleshire, Super Moderator 2
I have experinced similar problems (no soft water/no transfer of brine) with my GE Model PNSF35B installed in March 2001. The service tech replaced (2 years ago) the figure 8 in the seal kit and this solved the problem. He also indicated that Morton salt pellets have some type of coating that causes problems with the resins. He recommended the Diamond Crystal salt pellets. However, I continued to use Morton pellets for the almost 4 years of use with this unit. Recently, I started using the Diamond Crystal pellets but the unit has only had one regeneration with a mixture of Morton and Diamond Crystal pellets. It may be too late and the resins may need replacement.
The recent trouble was thought to be caused by heavy salt buildup on the styrofoam float inside the brinewell. It is not clear how this float functions (start/stop fill or brining?). The salt deposits were removed, but it did not appear to solve the problem of no soft water. All troubleshooting recommendations have been followed per the Owner's Manual and everything appears to be working properly, but there is still no soft water.
Should I replace this unit with a new softener, or is there something else that can be done, like replacing the resin beads?
Any recommendations greatly appreciated.
If you replace the resin and it still doesn't work then you're out that money and effort. So I'd call for service and see what's wrong with it before deciding to replace the softener but... 3-6 years is the usual life of your brand.
Gary
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Doug Aleshire, Super Moderator 2
Like others on this post, I've been having problems with getting soft water from my GE water softener. It runs through the regeneration cycle but is not softening the water, the salt level has not been lowering, and I usually have too high a water level in the tank. I've been through the troubleshooting animations at kenmorewater.com. When I follow this process, it generates soft water properly, but usually doesn't soften on the next regeneration.
From following the kenmore troubleshooting animation, here's what happens with my GE:
During the fill cycle, when I remove the float assembly, it is not trickling water as it should, and the rod and T valve do not move. So I have to force the T valve down, and then the water starts trickling from the float assembly. This happens the same way each time.
The other thing the troubleshooting animation has me do each time is remove and check the venturi assembly. My nozzle and venturi gasket slightly shows channels and wearing from the nozzle it sits under, but it is still very pliable and not cracked. I have not replaced it. After reassembling it, I check for suction and it is fine. I wait for the water level to lower, then finish the regeneration cycle.
My question then is where does my problem lie? Will replacing the venturi gasket fix the problem? Do I need to replace the float assembly? Or is it something else? I'm having trouble pinpointing the exact problem and don't want to call in a tech or have to replace the unit quite yet.
Thanks for any help.
Sorry, other than replacing that part or calling for service I have no idea what to tell you.
Gary
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Doug Aleshire, Super Moderator 2
I'll try and answer some general questions about reparing this valve. Unless something major is cracked, or worn out, there's no reason to trash the whole thing if you're willing to do some maintenance on it.
First thing to do is buy some silicone grease. The grease I use is from Ace Hardware. It's 90% pure silicone grease (you don't have to buy a 12 pack):
http://www.acehardware.com/product/i...642cp=1303829
Don't just use any faucet, valve, or plumbers grease. And don't use ANY grease that doesn't say non-toxic, or better yet food grade.
When you've got some appropriate grease, read jdahms post above and do what he says. I'd add two things: 1. When you reassemble the valve cover, put the cover on and slip the gear/cam on the shaft and turn the disc until it's in service mode; 2. When you put the screws in, hold each screw perfectly vertically and push down firmly while turning counterclockwise until you hear the screw threads click one or more times. The loudest click is usually where you want to start turning clockwise and tightening the screws. The reason this is done is to prevent cross threading. Then you simply tighten each screw, a little bit at a time, until they're all snug. Try and stick a thumbnail under the head of each screw, and if you can fit it, snug that screw a little more. Then do the thumbnail test again. When the valve is reassembled, but before you put the motor bracket on, you might apply water pressure and step through each cycle by hand to make sure there's no leaks. Be careful, and have a towel handy, because sometimes water can squirt out in a thin stream, and that could hit the circuit board - a $215 item.
Now some specifics: Eljoya, if I understand your problem, when you have too much water in your tank, it will pull the float up and seal the valve at the bottom of the brine tube assy. This will keep more water from going into the tank and possibly overflowing it, that's why if you push down on the rod water will flow, because you're opening the valve. This is normal.
What I see your problem is, like everyone else's with the GE, that the water's not being sucked out. One thing that I don't remember anyone mentioning is that at the bottom of the brine tube, inside the brine tube valve body, there's a fine hidden screen. Pull out the small clip and yank the brine tube out. Look down in the hole and you should be able to see it. If it's clogged, corroded or damaged, that could be your problem right there. Unfortunately, I don't know remove it without destroying it, so you'll have to clean it in place. To do this, the best thing to do is to remove the large clip and pull the top of the valve off (because you have the rod and float assembly dangling from it). If GENTLY prying the ends of the clip doesn't release them, then you have to squeeze the two parts of the valve together while you pry the clip. It's ok to use a screwdriver, but pry GENTLY while you squeeze the valve tightly over the end of the clip you want to remove.
Caution: At the top of the brine tube rod is a ceramic weight. When you're taking it apart, the ceramic weight will simply slide off the end of the rod. Be careful, because if it slids off and hits a concrete floor, it may shatter.
Now that you have the whole thing taken apart, there should be a fat O-ring in there. If that's damaged or smooshed, then you should probably take this opportunity to replace it. If you can find a hardware store that actually sells hardware , you should have no trouble finding a cheap replacment. Now your job is to clean the screen inside the brine valve body. First try something gentle like running water through the valve, and make sure you have the stopper in the sink in case the screen should pop out. If that doesn't work, you could try something like a water pick. Soaking in vinegar might help if it's crusty, but you should probably stay away from anything stronger.
Once all this is done, put a full, even coat of grease on the fat O-Ring, and on the smaller black seals at the end of the rod that go inside the valve. Squeeze the two parts of the valve together and put the big clip in. Before you reattach the tube, make sure there's a flow plug in the end of it, and it's not clogged or damaged. Put some grease on the little O-Rings at the end of the brine tube and insert it until it stops, (while making sure the ceramic float is in place and the rod is threaded through the bracket thing at the top), then put the small clip in. Do not put grease on the rubber seal on the underside of the styrofoam float, or it might stick closed.
As always, check for leaks and make sure the brine tube and the drain line are not kinked. Also make sure the drain line isn't physically connected to the overflow line.
Good luck.
I was having similar problems (GE softener runs throught the cycle normally but doesn't softener the water). I found that the venturi gasket was worn down so much that it fell apart when I lifted it out. I replaced the nozzle and venturi gasket as stated by someone earlier on this thread and it now works perfectly. cost $40 bucks for the part which is a lot but its a lot better than a new softener. Thanks guys!
In looking down thru this thread one common problem does come to my attention, the head or rotating disc that seems to be seizing. Don't know if all the angles have been considered. My line of work is in designing plastic parts...I wonder if the disk parts may have been made from Nylon or a similar plastic that absorbs moisture. Often designers consider the strength of the components they are designing but do not calculate for any dimensional changes or swelling that will occur due to humidity pick-up. If the disk is swelling it may cause enough interference to causing it to seize. And many that are cleaning and dissasembling them may be confused as there doesn't seem to be any scale, dirt or deposit -so one would tend to think there are no further things to look at. Swollen parts won't appear readily visible but after cleaned up and greased may still be hard to turn. At this point it might be helpful to go around any mating surfaces with a feeler guage (like we used to use to set points on a gasoline engine, to see if you can find a pinch point. Then, if practical gentle buff it with a little bit of 400 - 600 grit emery cloth to give a bit more clearance. This should be done with extreme caution...and in the event nothing else works.
Pauli
All hooked up to my water softener. I had this problem once before, when I screwed around and manually tried to regenerate my unit. Now I just let it go on its' own, and I'm getting salty water. Any suggestions? Thanks.
What's your hardness set at?
I just tore down my GE 27000 grain unit. After examining the valve body I believe I know why it's relatively short lived and why repairs do not last.
As the valve rotates the seals AND the valve body wear both vertically and horizontaly. replacing the components only fixes part of the problem as the new seals will flex in the worn valve body, start to jam the rotating disc, and fail after a fairly short time. The valve material, a fairly soft injection molded plastic, contributes to the problem. Apparently none of the manufacturers have picked up on this problem as the warranty is only a year and the valve should, the occasional lemon aside, easily last 3 to 5 years.
Any softener with the Ecodyn valve, GE, Kenmore, Morton... will have this problem and I'd avoid them. It doesn't make sense to save 1/3 the initial cost at the most, for a softener that wont last 1/3 as long.
Thank you, folks, for the good suggestions. My softener is in the working condition now.
Originally Posted by Moli
First thing to do is buy some silicone grease. The grease I use is from Ace Hardware. It's 90% pure silicone grease (you don't have to buy a 12 pack):
http://www.acehardware.com/product/i...642cp=1303829
Don't just use any faucet, valve, or plumbers grease. And don't use ANY grease that doesn't say non-toxic, or better yet food grade.
Instead of expensive silicone grease, I have used simple butter. It works OK in the cold water and absolutely safe.
Well I am thankfull for all you post on the GE softner. This is my story...I am on my second one (warranteed) and its been about eight months since GE sent me a new softner (new model too). Now I have the tank 75% full of water. The first thing I noticed was the rod on the suction tube was stuck. I push it and pulled it till it became free. Next I took it apart. The plastic locking clip comes out quit easy if you push the tube connecter in while pulling the clip up. Clean with water and re-lube with food grade lube and re-insert. Then do the same with the larger side of this fitting. Then I removed the motor screws and I could actually see where the cam gear is marked BW, BR, S, F and R. I am almost certain I now understand how this all works. The BR is Brine fill, and the BW is back wash the bead tank(resin beads). The Brine fill is when the valve fills the salt area with water so as to salinate the water that will fill the bead tank. The salt water is what releases the hard mineral deposits on the beads. The BW is the the cycle that actually sucks the salt water into the bead tank where it sits for a period of time. The next cycle is Rinse, this is where the water is flushed from the bead tank with fresh water and sent to the drain line. I believe most of my findings to be true and much easier to understand. My tank is now drain into the beads so it seems to be working now. I will not put any Morton salt in anymore...thanks for that tip. I hope you all find this helpfull.
I purchased a GE Softener from Home Depot a little over three years ago. After two years and one month of operation, I noticed an accumulation of water in the brine tank. The first thing I did was go through the venturi cleaning/inspection routine. This had no effect on the problem. My next step was to inspect the rotor valve and gaskets. Under casual inspection, these items looked okay. I lubed up the gaskets that came in contact with the rotor valve and things worked for about 6 months. For the past 5 or 6 months, the unit has stopped working 3 times. Each time, I disassembled the valve body/rotor and re-lubed the gaskets and things would work for a while. Finally, I broke down and ordered a new rotor valve and gasket kit which I installed last evening. For the first time, I inspected the old rotor under some good lighting and the best description I have for its appearance is it looked like an old LP record - lots and lots of concentric grooves. Since replacement, the softener is one for one in successful recharges.
Here's some related information.
Shortly after I purchased my softener, I noticed that Home Depot has put up a large sign near the softener display warning that softeners must remain in an upright position at all times and must not be laid down during transportation. I asked a sales associate why and the answer I got was that resin would get up in the valve assembly and lead to excessive wear and premature failure. Hmmm . . .
Also, the new rotor is somewhat different from the original at least in terms of appearance. The 'smooth' surface on the old rotor was all black. The surface on the new rotor is mostly white except for black outlines at the openings. I'm not sure if the material is any different or if this is purely a cosmetic change. Anyway, it will be interesting to see how long things work with the new parts.
- Shemp
I HAVE NOT LOCATED WHERE I CAN GET THE PARTS. THE VENTURI GASKET IS SHOT IN THE MODEL I HAVE. I BOUGHT IT IN 1999 OR 2000. IT IS IN THE MODEL SERIES GNSF18201, GNSF23701,GNSF35201. I APPRECIATE ANY HELP WITH THIS PROBLEM.
tks
bc
I installed a new rotor (valve) disc and gasket kit on 6/13/2005 and it's still working. My confidence that things are fixed (at least for a couple of years) is high enough that I'm going to stop adding salt one bag at a time and fill-up the salt tank.
- Shemp
Originally Posted by BCOLSTON
I HAVE NOT LOCATED WHERE I CAN GET THE PARTS. THE VENTURI GASKET IS SHOT IN THE MODEL I HAVE. I BOUGHT IT IN 1999 OR 2000. IT IS IN THE MODEL SERIES GNSF18201, GNSF23701,GNSF35201. I APPRECIATE ANY HELP WITH THIS PROBLEM.
tks
bc
The only place I could find parts is http://www.softenerparts.com/
Since the Ecowater/Ecodyne derived softeners seem to have these common problems, what brand softener do people suggest?
Does the Whirlpool softener fit in the above problem category?
Thanks
I bought a Clack when I gave up on GE repairs. A lot greater flow capacity and much better made.
Is Clack a control valve or a complete system?
I'm looking to buy a complete system for the new house I'm moving into in a few weeks. It's already pre-plumbed for a system.
Clack is a control valve and is a much better valve than the Autotol (GE) valve. I personally prefer control valves made by Fleck.
I believe Clack does not actually make the softner and they rely on authorized dealers to distribute their products. www.clackcorp.com Their web site doesn't provide a list of dealers.
Thanks for the info.
Tags: water, softener, problem, Aleshire Super, Aleshire Super Moderator, Company Name, Company Name Removed, Company Name Removed Only, Company Name Removed Only Doug, control valve, Doug Aleshire
